[New feature] Sketcher Constrain Contextually

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obelisk79
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Re: NEW FEATURE ! Sketcher Constrain Contextually

Post by obelisk79 »

NewJoker wrote: Sat Feb 05, 2022 5:28 pm And finally, the sketcher prevents overconstraints so new users should learn pretty quickly how to avoid redundant dimensions.
I'd just like to correct you on this point. It is quite ideal to have a sketch which utilizes many geometric constraints, and only 2 dimensional constraints rather than the other way around. To someone new to CAD, it is natural to want to dimension everything with numbers, however this is inefficient and results in models which are less stable and more prone to errors or unexpected behavior. This is particularly important when parameterizing a model, it's very easy to see a model go kablooey on a parameter or dimension edit when modeling that way.

So the issue isn't over-constraining. It's being unnecessarily reliant on dimensional constraints instead of geometric constraints. However that is a 'best practice' and shouldn't practically be a requirement by design.
cadcam
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Re: NEW FEATURE ! Sketcher Constrain Contextually

Post by cadcam »

@Newjoker,
... No, you can still draw like before without inputting any dimensions. ...

Sorry if I caused confusion, but that is what I had been trying to understand,
agreed can do 1 & 2 , but can you do 3?

1) Can be used as before - click and leave un-dimensioned
2) Can type in dimension in menu and click
3) Click and auto fill & DISPLAY dimension(s)

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NewJoker
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Re: NEW FEATURE ! Sketcher Constrain Contextually

Post by NewJoker »

cadcam wrote: Sat Feb 05, 2022 6:10 pm Sorry if I caused confusion, but that is what I had been trying to understand,
agreed can do 1 & 2 , but can you do 3?

1) Can be used as before - click and leave un-dimensioned
2) Can type in dimension in menu and click
3) Click and auto fill & DISPLAY dimension(s)
Apparently not but I was also going to suggest that. It would be great if this tool could also display dimensions when you move the mouse around after picking first point. That’s how it works in commercial software.
chrisb
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Re: NEW FEATURE ! Sketcher Constrain Contextually

Post by chrisb »

NewJoker wrote: Sat Feb 05, 2022 5:28 pm In my opinion, it's not the CAD program's role to teach them about good practices. Practically all commercial codes follow this approach and no one complains that their tools are too convenient.
In case you have missed my point (and didn't do it on purpose): it's of course not the convenience which is a problem. But you are right, that we shouldn't make a program for newbies. And to make things clear: I am not against such convenience tool, but we should make some good tutorials showing how to make good sketches anyway.
I'm sure that everyone here wants the user base to expand and the software to become more popular.
To be honest: you are wrong with this general assumption. Why should we? What's the benefit? We have thought for years that an increased user base brings a proportional increase of good developers and helpers in the forum, but meanwhile I have my doubts about this. Good developers come here for different reasons. This was rather explicit during the last escape wave from Fusion360, where it seems that users got sort of brainwashed to accept only identical software where the only difference accepted is the price.
A Sketcher Lecture with in-depth information is available in English, auf Deutsch, en français, en español.
drmacro
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Re: NEW FEATURE ! Sketcher Constrain Contextually

Post by drmacro »

NewJoker wrote: Sat Feb 05, 2022 5:28 pm ...
I used to think that FreeCAD is missing so many useful functionalities because there's no one to add them.
This is the case.
But I was wrong and the actual reason is that you stick to the approach "don't bring FreeCAD any closer to commercial software since this would promote bad modeling practices". Maybe it would for CAD purists but most of the actual designers and hobbyists don't care about this and they just want to be able to model easily and efficiently. In my opinion, it's not the CAD program's role to teach them about good practices. Practically all commercial codes follow this approach and no one complains that their tools are too convenient.
Clearly stated, in fact recently reiterated, by the founders; no intent or desire to compete with commercial software.
Maybe another problem is that FreeCAD has no defined goal but regardless,
Here we absolutely agree.
I'm sure that everyone here wants the user base to expand and the software to become more popular.
Many seem to say this, but, what percentage is unknown.
And if the new users are not to be scared away by missing functionalities (as many are now) then tools like the one discussed here are very important.
Hmm...every social media FreeCAD group I know of is growing, daily, so they don't seem to be running away. 8-)
Anyway, maybe a poll (preferably on Facebook) would be a good idea if you want to stand against the implementation of this tool. I know that the deciding vote belongs to mergers but community projects like this should take other users' opinions into account as well.
No one is "standing against" anything. Some, including myself have said it is, at least to them superfluous. Others have stated it could possibly encourage bad practices.
Not one person has said "do not write the code for this feature".
Also, let's not forget that this tool is optional and doesn't interfere with existing approaches.
And this to has been noted as a desire for this and other features.
And finally, the sketcher prevents overconstraints so new users should learn pretty quickly how to avoid redundant dimensions.
Hmm...the recurring questions seem to indicate otherwise.
Star Trek II: The Wrath of Khan: Spock: "...His pattern indicates two-dimensional thinking."
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NewJoker
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Re: NEW FEATURE ! Sketcher Constrain Contextually

Post by NewJoker »

chrisb wrote: Sat Feb 05, 2022 6:34 pm we should make some good tutorials showing how to make good sketches anyway.
Definitely a good idea. There are several YouTube channels with high-quality FreeCAD tutorials and I’m sure that they could present the proper use of this tool. Wiki articles would also help.
chrisb wrote: Sat Feb 05, 2022 6:34 pm To be honest: you are wrong with this general assumption. Why should we? What's the benefit? We have thought for years that an increased user base brings a proportional increase of good developers and helpers in the forum, but meanwhile I have my doubts about this. Good developers come here for different reasons. This was rather explicit during the last escape wave from Fusion360, where it seems that users got sort of brainwashed to accept only identical software where the only difference accepted is the price.
In my opinion, expanding user base contributes to software quality in various ways:
- new devs join - maybe less than expected but there are a few new guys, right ? And the OP is one of them. Even if someone doesn’t add new code, he still often spreads the word about FreeCAD and this in turn brings new potential devs. If the software is user-friendly, more people tend to recommend it to others. I observe this in the case of other open-source programs as well.
- more bugs are detected
- more people help others on the forum (I try to participate in that way too)
- more people update wiki and translations (that’s also part of my contributions)
- small improvements are more often suggested and added, I’m sure that you all make use of some of them.

And so on. I probably forgot about some points.
GeneFC
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Re: NEW FEATURE ! Sketcher Constrain Contextually

Post by GeneFC »

I think this forum and all the other FreeCAD forums may give a distorted view of the user base.

It seems every couple of days we see a first-time forum poster here who says something like, "I have been using FreeCAD for years, and now I have a problem I cannot solve."

I would not give all new users a label of blundering fool. I believe there are many silent users who learned FreeCAD, warts and all, without stumbling over these so-called ease-of-use hurdles. They may or may not use best practices, but it works.

(I may be a blundering fool, but I use a lot of dimensional constraints. I have never seen any sort of problem from doing so. :shock: )

Gene
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obelisk79
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Re: NEW FEATURE ! Sketcher Constrain Contextually

Post by obelisk79 »

GeneFC wrote: Sat Feb 05, 2022 7:35 pm I would not give all new users a label of blundering fool. I believe there are many silent users who learned FreeCAD, warts and all, without stumbling over these so-called ease-of-use hurdles. They may or may not use best practices, but it works.
Gene, I can't speak for the other posters on this thread, but when referencing 'newbies' I mean people new to CAD in general. Newcomers to freecad or new posters are a different category as you've alluded to. Thanks for sharing your thoughts.
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Chrismettal
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Re: NEW FEATURE ! Sketcher Constrain Contextually

Post by Chrismettal »

GeneFC wrote: Sat Feb 05, 2022 5:32 pm I think a lot of the speed question comes down to how one uses FreeCAD.

If you are simply trying to create a model as fast as possible, without any significant real-time engineering, then speed is very important.

On the other hand if one is designing and engineering while modeling, then the raw operation speed is totally buried in the overall process.

Gene
I have to disagree. No matter your workflow, if the tool is faster for the same work that's a win. Just being able to set constraints with less clicks does not make your model less stable in any way and I don't think that is a valid point to bring up.

I can use a big hand saw to fell a tree but I can also just use a chainsaw. It's just faster and easier without being less precise.

The 2nd feature paddle introduced for example is just faster and more intuitive. Having dimensional constraints be set based on mouse position takes away nothing of your robustness, could potentially remove some buttons, de-cluttering the GUI, and can be faster than figuring out the orientation of your sketch so you know to set a vertical or horizontal constraint.
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Re: NEW FEATURE ! Sketcher Constrain Contextually

Post by chrisb »

Chrismettal wrote: Sat Feb 05, 2022 9:21 pm No matter your workflow, if the tool is faster for the same work that's a win. Just being able to set constraints with less clicks does not make your model less stable in any way and I don't think that is a valid point to bring up.
This seems to be the topic of misunderstanding. I would have interpreted Gene‘s post differently. He didn’t say that faster constraining makes worse sketches. Only that faster sketching can be neglected depending on the overall aim and process.
A Sketcher Lecture with in-depth information is available in English, auf Deutsch, en français, en español.
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