[New feature] Sketcher Constrain Contextually

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drmacro
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Re: NEW FEATURE ! Sketcher Constrain Contextually

Post by drmacro »

Chrismettal wrote: Sat Feb 05, 2022 9:21 pm ...
No matter your workflow, if the tool is faster for the same work that's a win. Just being able to set constraints with less clicks does not make your model less stable in any way and I don't think that is a valid point to bring up.

I can use a big hand saw to fell a tree but I can also just use a chainsaw. It's just faster and easier without being less precise.
...
But, it's a matter of degree. We aren't talking about reducing an operation from an hour to a few seconds.The discussion is about reducing a few seconds to a few less seconds.

I think about things far more than this would ever save me.

And what you see as intuitive, I see as confusing stuff popping up and guessing my intent.

Again, no one is saying these things shouldn't be availble for those who want them, it is just being pointed out they are not everyone's everything.
Star Trek II: The Wrath of Khan: Spock: "...His pattern indicates two-dimensional thinking."
GeneFC
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Re: NEW FEATURE ! Sketcher Constrain Contextually

Post by GeneFC »

Chrismettal wrote: Sat Feb 05, 2022 9:21 pm I have to disagree. No matter your workflow, if the tool is faster for the same work that's a win.
I never said anything different. There is very little advantage to "slow". :shock:

Gene
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obelisk79
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Re: NEW FEATURE ! Sketcher Constrain Contextually

Post by obelisk79 »

drmacro wrote: Sat Feb 05, 2022 10:40 pm And what you see as intuitive, I see as confusing stuff popping up and guessing my intent.
Rather than view this as some mystery widget guessing what you want, think of it as a tool that reacts to what your mouse is doing on the screen in a predicable way using set rules that are easy to get accustomed to with little brainpower required.

I realize this might not be your cup of tea, but I do think your perspective is narrow on this item. Yes in the grand scheme you are correct in asserting that this is just chasing seconds in a process that can be much more time consuming, but this isn't without its merits. If you've never used such a tool then you shouldn't knock it. If you have and just don't 'miss' it, that's fine too. But it fits a style of effectively and efficiently generating constrained sketches for many people, I think that's ok. I think collectively we're just talking in circles around this.

I haven't seen anyone say that this tool shouldn't be added to FeeCAD's toolbox. If that is the general consensus then what are we each trying to convince the other of?
GeneFC
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Re: NEW FEATURE ! Sketcher Constrain Contextually

Post by GeneFC »

obelisk79 wrote: Sat Feb 05, 2022 11:46 pm I haven't seen anyone say that this tool shouldn't be added to FeeCAD's toolbox. If that is the general consensus then what are we each trying to convince the other of?
I do not believe anyone has actually said the new capability should not be an option.

The issue is whether the existing functions will remain and still work correctly. Perhaps after the wonderful new tool has a good workout everyone will sing Hallelujah and we will want to totally replace those ancient Neanderthal tools.

This is a big change, and there have been enough fits and starts that caution is warranted.

Gene
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Re: NEW FEATURE ! Sketcher Constrain Contextually

Post by abdullah »

NewJoker wrote: Sat Feb 05, 2022 12:54 pm
abdullah wrote: Sat Feb 05, 2022 7:31 am I am unsure if the taskbar is the right place for this, but I do not have a clear picture of where it could be better (or worse). It has crossed my mind floating near the click position (but it may clutter the view), or floating on the right bottom corner as an overlay and only while a tool making use of it is actually active. I would like to hear user feedback about this (we are trying to make it right).
Commercial software uses dimension value fields directly for that:

I like this approach but I will be also happy with the current design proposed by paddle. Both these features (contextual dimension constraint and tool settings widget) are game-changers for me and I hope that they will be implemented soon.
Aside from the dialog, if the tool would "edit" datum constraints (by clicking on them for example), something like this could be implemented.

(multiple) selection of constraints could also be used to change the with alternates, mixed selection of constraints and geometry could give further context to a constrain addition... maybe I have not thought it through. I just say it in case it may be inspirational.
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Re: NEW FEATURE ! Sketcher Constrain Contextually

Post by abdullah »

GeneFC wrote: Sun Feb 06, 2022 12:50 am I do not believe anyone has actually said the new capability should not be an option.
This functionality will eventually be merged.

I am thinking of making it transparent and fully optional (on by default). Meaning that, if the user goes to preferences and deactivates it:

- The command button will not appear in the constraints bar.
. The dialog will not appear (in the taskbar or else).

It would be as not having implemented it.
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Chrismettal
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Re: NEW FEATURE ! Sketcher Constrain Contextually

Post by Chrismettal »

GeneFC wrote: Sat Feb 05, 2022 11:12 pm
I never said anything different. There is very little advantage to "slow". :shock:
I'm sorry, then I misinterpreted you. The gist I got from the discussion was along the likes of "Stop introducing faster, more intuitive features so new users learn how to do it right".
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adrianinsaval
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Re: NEW FEATURE ! Sketcher Constrain Contextually

Post by adrianinsaval »

GeneFC wrote: Sun Feb 06, 2022 12:50 am The issue is whether the existing functions will remain and still work correctly. Perhaps after the wonderful new tool has a good workout everyone will sing Hallelujah and we will want to totally replace those ancient Neanderthal tools.
But nobody has tried to remove the old commands either, this is a new command that let's you add the same old constraints in a different way, all the other buttons are still there and I think most of us want them to stay. At most they can be grouped inside dropdowns (and I haven't even seen anyone trying to that here yet). And before anybody comes asking for the option to have them outside dropdowns, the option is buil-in in FreeCAD, you can always create your custom toolbar.
So yes, everyone is talking in circles here, in short:
  • nobody opposes the existance if this tool
  • nobody wants this tool to fully replace all the rest
  • the tool may encourage bad practices, but this could be mitigated: I have insisted before that the tools should prefer geometrical when it makes sense, tutorials and documentation are a form of mitigation. Besides, no ammount of hand holding will erradicate the existance of confused newbies so it's not a showstopper for the feature either.
Last edited by adrianinsaval on Sun Feb 06, 2022 4:56 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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adrianinsaval
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Re: NEW FEATURE ! Sketcher Constrain Contextually

Post by adrianinsaval »

abdullah wrote: Sun Feb 06, 2022 6:56 am Aside from the dialog, if the tool would "edit" datum constraints (by clicking on them for example), something like this could be implemented.

(multiple) selection of constraints could also be used to change the with alternates, mixed selection of constraints and geometry could give further context to a constrain addition... maybe I have not thought it through. I just say it in case it may be inspirational.
IMO it would be best to have easier editing of constraints when no tool is active instead. Having the constraints unselectable during editing is quite benefitial IMO because you're usually more interested in selecting the geometries bellow (at least I am)
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Re: NEW FEATURE ! Sketcher Constrain Contextually

Post by GeneFC »

adrianinsaval wrote: Sun Feb 06, 2022 4:52 pm So yes, everyone is talking in circles here
Yes, we are all getting dizzy. At one time there was a lot of discussion of *replacing* the current tools. That may have been relaxed more recently following all the discussion here.

In any case I am sure that Abdullah is fully aware of all the issues. When he gets a chance to return to active coding the changes will be merged to everyone's satisfaction.

Gene
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