Fusion360 has hiked its prices once again. Brace yourselves, CADfugees are coming

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thschrader
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Re: Fusion360 has hiked its prices once again. Brace yourselves, CADfugees are coming

Post by thschrader »

sliptonic wrote: Mon Aug 15, 2022 4:09 pm ...
As a consequence there are whole parts of the forum that I don't bother reading any more.
Aaah, come on... :)
Here is a new one, about crowd-funding, german forum.
Dont hesitate to post in english.
https://forum.freecadweb.org/viewtopic.php?f=13&t=71133
grd
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Re: Fusion360 has hiked its prices once again. Brace yourselves, CADfugees are coming

Post by grd »

chrisb wrote: Tue Aug 16, 2022 10:22 am
grd wrote: Tue Aug 16, 2022 6:28 am So if we could make such a "top 10 list", put it on github, ...
So far it is easy doing; here is my top ten:
T
o
p
o
n
a
m
i
n
g
Do you have another alternative? The only thing that I am pointing out is a way to make the issues visible. So far I haven't seen one. Not one to be proud of. What was the goal again? Make FreeCAD as easy going as SW and the stability of Creo. I want that and I bet you too.
Here things become less easy: Who is these "we", who should do the fixing?
Easy. They guy who feels like fixing the issue, as it always is the case. But the top 10 list should be visible for anyone to see.
MS can assign work to some developer and he will do for the money he gets. We can also assign work to developers. And they will do it or they will not. Or they will do something else. Should we forbid workiing on other things than the top ten? Sure not, as it could stop all developments for years or forever.
FreeCAD is not short of ideas what could or should be done, it needs the people who actually do it.
Welcome in the world of complexity, but I nor you need to point that out.
I come along very well with most toponaming issues. So the list above is rather to demonstrate that it helps nothing. We know it since years.
It is just an idea, but please come up with an alternative.
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keithsloan52
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Re: Fusion360 has hiked its prices once again. Brace yourselves, CADfugees are coming

Post by keithsloan52 »

Scan read the comments in the Hackaday article

Seems a number are looking at migrating away from F360 to some cheap SW option, good luck with that, learning curve and you are still at the mercy of changes in function, charges etc.

I think it is fair to say that FreeCAD has a bit of an image problem, certainly a Marmite case, you either love it or hate it, or should that be hate it or love it. Some negative comments about FreeCAD based on lack of knowledge, features like use of Link etc. Difficult in that F360 way of working is different and that is what they have gotten used to. Trouble is there are a fair number of haters, who one is never going to convince and will be spreading bad vibes.

Trouble is a number commenters have other FOSS open source experience with KiCAD and Blender, both of which I consider more mature FOSS, they operate/develop more like a commercial company, planned releases, features, conferences, have strong funding, sponsors.

Definitely agree our number one priority has to be Topological naming and Release 1.0.

How are the download stats these days? Also a bit worried that we had no GSOC projects this year. Might just be me but got the impression getting 0.20 out was more effort than in previous releases?
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obelisk79
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Re: Fusion360 has hiked its prices once again. Brace yourselves, CADfugees are coming

Post by obelisk79 »

keithsloan52 wrote: Wed Aug 17, 2022 10:37 am Difficult in that F360 way of working is different and that is what they have gotten used to.
First off, I want to lead off with this statement: I personally have never liked F360.

To it's credit however, it isn't just that F360 has a different way of working. A completely untrained hobbyist can watch 15 minutes worth of video and be reasonably productive at designing solids as a result (in F360). The same cannot be said about FreeCAD. I don't mean to bring up any of the common debates/complaints about FreeCAD, but I think there is an illustration of differences that has merit and should result in some relative comparisons/evaluation. Even other commercial CAD software doesn't have such a straightforward entry-point for new users. Part of this is due to the quality of learning materials, but that is maybe 1/3rd of the factors involved.

Ultimately though, none of this should take priority over the significance of mitigating limitations in workflow resulting from TNP. I just wanted to point out that while F360 and Autodesk aren't particularly spectacular, they do some things exceptionally well and some of those aspects could be studied and adapted here.
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Re: Fusion360 has hiked its prices once again. Brace yourselves, CADfugees are coming

Post by drmacro »

obelisk79 wrote: Wed Aug 17, 2022 11:16 am ...
To it's credit however, it isn't just that F360 has a different way of working. A completely untrained hobbyist can watch 15 minutes worth of video and be reasonably productive at designing solids as a result (in F360).
This may be true, I'm not convinced that it is 100% true though. I've seen plenty of folks struggle with it, and other CAD offerings.
The same cannot be said about FreeCAD....
Again, I'd argue not 100% true. There have been new users here in the forums that have managed to be productive in short order. Mostly because they had no expectations and, for what ever reason, were not hampered by needing to unlearn other workflows and concepts. (In addition, I've seen many new, non-CAD users in the Facebook and Discord pick it up in short order. Again, mostly because they had no expectations and were eager to learn to use FreeCAD, rather than comparing it to what they did before.

That is not to say FreeCAD doesn't have PLENTY of room for improvement. I just think those who have expectations and think they can design the JWST after poking some icons for a few minutes are the loudest voices.
Star Trek II: The Wrath of Khan: Spock: "...His pattern indicates two-dimensional thinking."
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obelisk79
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Re: Fusion360 has hiked its prices once again. Brace yourselves, CADfugees are coming

Post by obelisk79 »

drmacro wrote: Wed Aug 17, 2022 11:56 am This may be true, I'm not convinced that it is 100% true though...
Of course, nothing about usability, intuitiveness and workflow are 100% black and white. They are largely personal. I too have seen people come to FreeCAD with little to no experience be productive, but I also believe it is less common in comparison to other offerings. Definitely agree that the loudest complainers are those who have to put aside their old habits/workflows before they can become productive.

We also can't be dismissive of general perception and common (valid) complaints/comparisons regarding FreeCAD. Separating the chaff from the grains of truth in that regard can sometimes be a challenge.
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Re: Fusion360 has hiked its prices once again. Brace yourselves, CADfugees are coming

Post by chrisb »

grd wrote: Wed Aug 17, 2022 8:41 am It is just an idea, but please come up with an alternative.
Jürgen Riegel, one of the founders, has made a proposal years ago: "Stop whining - start coding!"

I mean: If someone comes here saying "Hey I, want to do something to improve the usability of FreeCAD, where should I start?" Then we can think about lists and organizing and all the stuff. But as long as people are only planning what others should do - for free! - I doubt that it will really help.
The idea that it could attract developers, because now they finally know what to do can be right. Or wrong. Just as the argument could be right or wrong that such a list, which sure would contain huge tasks, could chase away programmers who rather want to do something else.
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Re: Fusion360 has hiked its prices once again. Brace yourselves, CADfugees are coming

Post by grd »

chrisb wrote: Wed Aug 17, 2022 2:25 pm
grd wrote: Wed Aug 17, 2022 8:41 am It is just an idea, but please come up with an alternative.
Jürgen Riegel, one of the founders, has made a proposal years ago: "Stop whining - start coding!"

I mean: If someone comes here saying "Hey I, want to do something to improve the usability of FreeCAD, where should I start?" Then we can think about lists and organizing and all the stuff. But as long as people are only planning what others should do - for free! - I doubt that it will really help.
The idea that it could attract developers, because now they finally know what to do can be right. Or wrong. Just as the argument could be right or wrong that such a list, which sure would contain huge tasks, could chase away programmers who rather want to do something else.
Why couldn't you just say that you don't have an idea.
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adrianinsaval
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Re: Fusion360 has hiked its prices once again. Brace yourselves, CADfugees are coming

Post by adrianinsaval »

keithsloan52 wrote: Wed Aug 17, 2022 10:37 am Might just be me but got the impression getting 0.20 out was more effort than in previous releases?
IMO it was better coordinated and more polished than previous releases, there was more work involved, but this is a good thing because a lot more things got fixed. Backporting seems to be more extensive than before too. Of course I am not the main guy behind making releases so this could just be my perception.
grd wrote: Wed Aug 17, 2022 8:41 am What was the goal again? Make FreeCAD as easy going as SW and the stability of Creo.
Who's goal? I don't want FreeCAD to be as solidworks, I want it to be good on it's own terms, if that implies being similar to solidworks in some aspect, so be it, if it implies being different, so be it.
It is just an idea, but please come up with an alternative.
I would rather have a voting system for all issues, just as something informative, no strings attached, this way we can have an idea of what are the most requested things. This gives you a top 10 out of the box if you want that, or maybe you can filter the issues on the modules you want to work on.
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Re: Fusion360 has hiked its prices once again. Brace yourselves, CADfugees are coming

Post by sliptonic »

grd wrote: Wed Aug 17, 2022 2:47 pm
chrisb wrote: Wed Aug 17, 2022 2:25 pm
grd wrote: Wed Aug 17, 2022 8:41 am It is just an idea, but please come up with an alternative.
Jürgen Riegel, one of the founders, has made a proposal years ago: "Stop whining - start coding!"

I mean: If someone comes here saying "Hey I, want to do something to improve the usability of FreeCAD, where should I start?" Then we can think about lists and organizing and all the stuff. But as long as people are only planning what others should do - for free! - I doubt that it will really help.
The idea that it could attract developers, because now they finally know what to do can be right. Or wrong. Just as the argument could be right or wrong that such a list, which sure would contain huge tasks, could chase away programmers who rather want to do something else.
Why couldn't you just say that you don't have an idea.
This kind of sniping is why I think the forum is outliving its usefulness - at least for any productive discussion about development.
I'm not blaming you guys. I've fallen into this trap many times myself. I'm blaming the tool. The forum doesn't lead to productive discussion. It encourages opinions that aren't thought out. Ranting feels (to the ranter) like they are doing something. The forum lends itself to this kind of low-value discussion.

For comparison, look at the issue I started on preference page cleanup. I'm not saying this is perfect. It might not even lead to a change. But you can see that the discussion is more focused. Eventually it can reference actual code and files. It can link to a PR so the people involved are all on the same page at the same time.

Moderators, let's start discouraging this kind of unfocused call for action. If someone calls for "better UI", says we should be more like XYZ application, or makes other un-actionable rants, direct them to create an issue. Force them to put some thought and effort into what they're asking.

Poor issues will be summarily closed. Good issues can move forward with focused discussion.
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