Fusion360 has hiked its prices once again. Brace yourselves, CADfugees are coming

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drmacro
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Re: Fusion360 has hiked its prices once again. Brace yourselves, CADfugees are coming

Post by drmacro »

Zolko wrote: Mon Aug 15, 2022 10:49 am ...
Is your start up config available as a preference pack?

Is there anyone/group attempting to make preference packs available?

Or anyone/group addressing the startup/fresh install logistics? (for example, the talk of having a first run user setup process is talked about a lot. I suspect it is seen as something that requires mage level developer to tackle and thus remains smouldering...)

It seems to me there is a lot of talk about what "could" be, but I don't think I've ever seen something like "Hey, I'm willing to lead/coordinate this effort if I can get a couple people who'll help...".

(Yes, I know there are a few that are making icons and exploring preference packs. But, I'm talking about a concerted effort. <thinking out loud mode on> Would this actually require in depth development experience? If so then the process of creating preference packs may be too complex... Could the workbench tool bars be reconfigurable so that non-mage level developers can modify? If workbench tool bars are so baked in the code then... Can a mere user create a random toolbars? Or is the Global toolbar and additions to existing bars the extent? <thinking out loud mode on> )

As @sliptonic points out there are plenty of other things that can relieve some of the work the devs are burdened with. Bug triage, etc. doesn't require a dev-mage, but, if the UI/UX stuff does, it is easy to see why there is little contribution in these areas.

(Disclaimer: I admit I am guilty of not delving into these myself. But, I contribute to the wiki when I have something new or find errors or find discussions that need to be de-confused.)
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Kunda1
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Re: Fusion360 has hiked its prices once again. Brace yourselves, CADfugees are coming

Post by Kunda1 »

@Zolko we can turn your approach in to a Preference Packs. A while back you did me the favor of sending me your config files but I didn't end up using them. Maybe we should have another go at it ?
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Re: Fusion360 has hiked its prices once again. Brace yourselves, CADfugees are coming

Post by Zolko »

Kunda1 wrote: Mon Aug 15, 2022 12:07 pm @Zolko we can turn your approach in to a Preference Packs.
No, I rather think that we should ship a good default config for first-users. Preference-Packs are already 1 (or 2) steps away for a new user, it's too late. I'd make a PR for a new default config file but I don't know where it is generated. Or whether it even exists at all, may-be it's hard-coded in C++.
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Re: Fusion360 has hiked its prices once again. Brace yourselves, CADfugees are coming

Post by Kunda1 »

Zolko wrote: Mon Aug 15, 2022 12:19 pm No, I rather think that we should ship a good default config for first-users. Preference-Packs are already 1 (or 2) steps away for a new user, it's too late. I'd make a PR for a new default config file but I don't know where it is generated. Or whether it even exists at all, may-be it's hard-coded in C++.
Sure, but hear me out. Instead of trying to jam a PR through that is a cosmetic/workflow based (historically very controversial and subject to a lot of 'red-tape'), we side-step that by creating a preference pack. Make some clips showing your workflow and showcase that on the Preference Pack README.md page that is visible through the addon manager. Build a following.

At some point I believe we'll have a welcome screen where preference packs and theme options will be part of initial welcome in to FreeCAD (sort of what Inkscape has done (at least with Light and Dark modes).

Edit: mpetrikas made a mockup that I like, I think that eventually we should do something akin + add the option for choosing themes
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Re: Fusion360 has hiked its prices once again. Brace yourselves, CADfugees are coming

Post by user1234 »

Zolko wrote: Mon Aug 15, 2022 10:49 am So we started with a fresh FreeCAD install, with the default config, and indeed, FreeCAD is not usable in that state. Not usable as in : "not usable". It's IMPOSSIBLE to get ANYTHING done in a fresh stock FreeCAD install.

You extremely hyperbolize. And have you ever installed an other CAD from zero? Then you often eve can not start, you have often write batchfiles that you even can start or find your config folders (even when they are empty, you need them). Besides that they are often empty or not well set up per default. And when it is set up, then they have sold it extra it it cost extra. In other CADs i regular had to set up the GUI only and that alone cost me often one day (everytime, even i know it good). In FreeCAD costs me less then 2 minutes from zero (without config file), even every startup other CADs tooks way longer (5-20min, because the taking the licence need that time, even with a 10Gbit network). And from other bugs in other CADs i not even start to speak (loading content modules and licence clashing, autoresetting configs because of it, .....).

Zolko wrote: Mon Aug 15, 2022 10:49 am ALL CAD programs have a tree-view on the left side of the window, but some smart-arse thinks that FreeCAD should NOT have this by default, but should hide it behind some obscure undocumented configuration option with the label "beware of the leopard".
I do not think that is on purpose. I think no one ever had set it up, since they set up their GUI anyway.


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Re: Fusion360 has hiked its prices once again. Brace yourselves, CADfugees are coming

Post by Jee-Bee »

Please can this topic splitted? It has noting to do with Fusion 360 anymore.

If we talk about improvements... I agree FC can make huge steps! The first thing i notice is that most of the time there is spoken about how does the UI look. While for me the UX (User experience) is way more important. This hold specially when start using new software.
The UI have to lead you through the functions... But the UX is not only does it look shiny, but more can i find the necessary functions. work the features as i expect. get i error messages if yes are these usefull why yes or why no?
When i look at my self: From all my CAD experience is most of it with PTC Creo / Pro Engineer what is not the most intuitive CAD software ever. But i can say that from Creo Learning FC is more difficult that from Creo learning SW / NX.

Also in this topic i read responses about ohhh new user complain again. But that response is also headed to users with 1000+ post. What i don't consider as a new user.
And i think that new users (don't matter if they are experienced mechanical engineers or a kid with the age of 8 years old) are the ones that can nail down the thinks that work or not work. I think that long time users may accept that more often.
I know that unlearning is in normal cases almost impossible(!) and that can be a problem within this community. It is not bad to agree that there is room for improvements. A lot of us( I assume including me) are more than once not able to look to FC as if you are new to it.
What if you did? (You can call this also try to break it... why does it break is it necessary)

A point i have personally difficulties with is related on development but directly. It is a roadmap kind of thing.
What i strugle with is that i have quite often the feeling that there is no overview on the project in what functions do we want to add. when do we want these functions implemented. what features can be improved(in directly related we can create bug reports or feature request but i'm missing just something as improvement).
What workflow(s) do we expect, how to compare solutions and workflows(If group 1 wants A and group 2 wants B, how much do they differ. does it make sense to add both workflows etc). is it possible to create a certain unity in look / feel / response(simple example: pre-select functions / post select functions / pre or post select functions).
The reason i have personal difficulties with is that it directly involve (a few) devs that are already super busy with a lot of other work...
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Re: Fusion360 has hiked its prices once again. Brace yourselves, CADfugees are coming

Post by Zolko »

Jee-Bee wrote: Mon Aug 15, 2022 12:43 pm Please can this topic splitted? It has noting to do with Fusion 360 anymore.
I disagree, it has everything to do with it: we have feedback from Fusion 360 users that FreeCAD doesn't behave like they are used to. So the question becomes: should we consider their request and ship FreeCAD with a default configuration that follows general industrial practices and that costs NOTHING in development time, or should we continue to ignore these recurring claims and ride our high horse ?
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Re: Fusion360 has hiked its prices once again. Brace yourselves, CADfugees are coming

Post by Kunda1 »

Started a new thread:
Turning Zolko's theme in to a Preference Pack - https://forum.freecadweb.org/viewtopic.php?f=34&t=71110
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Re: Fusion360 has hiked its prices once again. Brace yourselves, CADfugees are coming

Post by Jee-Bee »

Zolko wrote: Mon Aug 15, 2022 1:05 pm I disagree
From my perspective at fist it goes about the things autdesk do / stop doing, and now it goes about FC sucks and is stupid... As far as i can see are that different subjects. But to me it is free to disagree, than we disagree...
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Re: Fusion360 has hiked its prices once again. Brace yourselves, CADfugees are coming

Post by GeneFC »

Since this topic has gone off the rails I will add my view.

I tried Fusion 360 for several weeks a couple of years ago. I gave up in disgust after a while since it was so difficult to get started.

Sure, some programs are easier than others for a beginner. But doubt there is any serious CAD program that is instantly "intuitive".

Practice, practice, practice. 8-)

Gene
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