Fusion360 has hiked its prices once again. Brace yourselves, CADfugees are coming

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onekk
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Re: Fusion360 has hiked its prices once again. Brace yourselves, CADfugees are coming

Post by onekk »

Jee-Bee wrote: Thu Aug 18, 2022 12:29 pm I don't understand why devs are higher ranked than Users. A user is equally important as a dev and both wants the best for FC!
Currently the roadmap is pitty enough an illusion... FC don't have one(https://wiki.freecadweb.org/Development_roadmap)
I think that a dev has a higher rank than an user is due simply to the fact that he is working (hard) to make things, while usually users only ask and many times not too politely "I want this", "I want that", "It will be not too difficult to make this".

Problem here are that developers are scarce and user are increasing, coming here because FC is cost less than commercial CADs, if you follow recent discussion many of them are not very respectful of a more than 22 years old effort in trying to supply an Opensource CAD.

EDIT:

Counting as developers the people who contribute with other "hard work" like maintaining documentation, helping user on the forum and other boring task, like creating packages, reporting "real" bugs, find solutions and other less visible tasks .

Added to clarify better my thought.

END EDIT:

FC could be better, surely yes, but the "roadmap" is tightly linked also to what is possible with current developers efforts and with actual available libraries, some of them have even some conflicting licenses, so even supply them bundled with FC is problematic.

Opensource is made in this way, someone, who in interest in something will code things, starting from his interest and skills, some other peoples find the work great and start using it, but who do the hard work is rarely payed for his efforts, and not only in "monetary" sense.

To have a precise "roadmap" involve having an infrastructure, many Opensource program have a foundation that raise money and fund the development, FC has not (yet) such foundation, there is FCA but his goal is mainly to "protect FC copyright (copyleft)".

But as people that has followed Opensource from some years see that even the most organized structure has some flawn, as example is not unusual that there is no a "precise" time for releases and where this is present, sometimes the roadmap is not repsected due to lack of time of programmes or other problems, not to talk about "internal fights" or similar.

From what I could see having used Linux for over 20 years, FC is in a "decent state", is improving, and is expanding in "user base", so it is relatively in "good health".

All users want that their "loved software" will improve faster, but now many efforts are concentrated on "TNP mitigation" that is involving "deep changes" in the FC codebase. (Some recent news seems to reveal that soon there will be some big PR from RT to start "TNP mitigation").

I have a solution, absolutely no.

I could think of some solutions, maybe.

A "commercial help desk" for FC where people could "pay to be helped" and this funds, will be used to refund "helpers" of the time spent in helping users and a big part will be devolved to FC to pay some "hired developers" to improve code and squash bugs.

But probably even this solution has his flaws, as you have to deal with "international laws" when dealing with money and other things, so probably a "not little" amount has to be spent to make an infrastructure that could take care of these aspects and usually it is not "very cheap" as it involve professionals that usually do them for money and not for glory.

All this post is done by an users that sometimes try to help others and is not involved in FCA and is not a developer.

Regards

Carlo D.
Last edited by onekk on Thu Aug 18, 2022 3:08 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Fusion360 has hiked its prices once again. Brace yourselves, CADfugees are coming

Post by mfro »

onekk wrote: Thu Aug 18, 2022 2:07 pmI think that a dev has a higher rank than an user is due simply to the fact that he is working (hard) to make things, while usually users only ask and many times not too politely "I want this", "I want that", "It will be not too difficult to make this".
Although there surely are some users with a pretty demanding attitude on what *others* (devs) have to do with *their* personal spare time, I wouldn't put it that way. That would be more than unfair to lots of users that bring FreeCAD forward their way (i.e. help other users, create qualified bug reports, write documentation, provide testing, etc) with their voluntary spare time investment.

That's just as important as coding.

FreeCAD is a very complex piece of software with lots of internal dependencies. Even as an experienced developer, it's easy to fix one problem while causing three others at the same time if you aren't careful.

From that point of view, IMHO only somebody (ideally: a team) with good enough knowledge about the inner workings should have the final say on what, which and how something is going to be implemented.
Have seen lots of commercial software companies where the marketing department took over direction of their product. People that don't know about inner workings, do's and dont's but know what's "cool to have". Many of these failed miserably.
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Re: Fusion360 has hiked its prices once again. Brace yourselves, CADfugees are coming

Post by onekk »

mfro wrote: Thu Aug 18, 2022 2:52 pm That would be more than unfair to lots of users that bring FreeCAD forward their way (i.e. help other users, create qualified bug reports, write documentation, provide testing, etc) with their voluntary spare time investment.
...

You are right, I have speak about coders, forgetting other important contributor like those you mention. (maybe I could be included among them).

I amend my post above.

Regards

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Re: Fusion360 has hiked its prices once again. Brace yourselves, CADfugees are coming

Post by Jee-Bee »

adrianinsaval wrote: Thu Aug 18, 2022 12:50 pm are they really? ...
That's not where i responded on.
onekk wrote: Thu Aug 18, 2022 2:07 pm
Jee-Bee wrote: Thu Aug 18, 2022 12:29 pm
mfro wrote: Thu Aug 18, 2022 10:50 am Not sure if this alone would be enough. I'd rather see a voting system where indeed Users would indicate their wishes, but with an "advisory board" on top where ideally knowledgable devs would put these wishes in a broader context whether they meet intended direction of the software in general, fit into already existing architecture, rate them and create a general roadmap from there.
I don't understand why devs are higher ranked than Users. A user is equally important as a dev and both wants the best for FC!
Currently the roadmap is pitty enough an illusion... FC don't have one(https://wiki.freecadweb.org/Development_roadmap)
I think that a dev has a higher rank than an user ...
I don't necessary agree on that... I understand that there is some seniority. Some are longer within FC, and other shorter. Some have programmed more others have used it more. Some others have documented more.
I assume that you (and if not than now) under stand that i'm not happy with a sentence like
with an "advisory board" on top where ideally knowledgable devs would put these wishes in a broader context
As if users are not knowledgeable; as if users don't have a broader context; as if users with other qualities then programming are not good enough :evil:.
Some time ago we had here a guy that had a UI / UX background. He has put some effort in the UI stuff. but as far as i can see less with UX. UX is equally important as the programming stuff.
onekk wrote: Thu Aug 18, 2022 2:07 pm Problem here are that developers are scarce and user are increasing, coming here because FC is cost less than commercial CADs, if you follow recent discussion many of them are not very respectful of a more than 22 years old effort in trying to supply an Opensource CAD.
Yes i noticed. And pitta enough i have also noticed the reverse! That i got responses as i have just written my first post. That i have to leave the FC forum for some days to relax. That only the idea that in some topics i got a response pump up a new load of frustration!
I have wait with my response more than once, just to can be a bit polite. I don't if i was polite (Sorry to all if not), but before i'm quite sure i wasn't!
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Re: Fusion360 has hiked its prices once again. Brace yourselves, CADfugees are coming

Post by user1234 »

Jee-Bee wrote: Thu Aug 18, 2022 4:00 pm UX is equally important as the programming stuff.
Absolutely agree, and i think the other do as well. But the others have, except the many small inconsistency (yes they can be inconvenient), no problem with the UX, or better said, they like the UX. I like it too.


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Re: Fusion360 has hiked its prices once again. Brace yourselves, CADfugees are coming

Post by sliptonic »

When I talk about 'high value communication' I mean some very specific things.
  • The communicator invested significant effort to express an idea. A drive-by opinion is low investment.
  • The communicator spent effort to be understood. A "Wall-of-text" post shows a lot of time invested but requires a lot of time to understand. That reduces its value. Anything the communicator does to make it easier to comprehend increases value. Pictures, links, code snippets, sample files, etc.
  • High-value communication avoids emotion.
  • High-value communication avoids opinion. People have different perspectives and those can sometimes be useful. Raw opinion, is generally worthless.
  • The communicator has some 'skin in the game'. Anonymity is important. However, if someone uses their real name then they are taking a reputational risk. The same is true if the person posting has a long history in the community. Even if they use an alias, they have a reputation to uphold so they have a vested interest in communicating well. A brand new account with exactly 1 post and an anonymous username should be seen as having no skin in the game.
  • The post is actionable. High value communication invites more of the same. Low-value invites more opinion and bloviating.
Ajinkya's post is an example of high-value communication.

For all these reasons, polls and voting systems should be avoided. They don't require anything of the respondents other than to push a button. Respondents don't risk anything. The polls don't require the creator to structure the poll skillfully. They don't ensure a good sample of respondents. They raise more questions than they answer.

They are another form of low-value communication.
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Re: Fusion360 has hiked its prices once again. Brace yourselves, CADfugees are coming

Post by Lonfor »

Jee-Bee wrote: Thu Aug 18, 2022 12:29 pm I don't understand why devs are higher ranked than Users. A user is equally important as a dev and both wants the best for FC!
Because of the "Pareto Principle" which states that in any society or organization, 20% percent of its members produce 80% of the output, being the remaining 80% low or non-productive members kinda leechers feeding on the minority. That is fine and natural as long as the two camps accept the balance, but as soon as that delicate equilibrium is disrupted, conflict and production stoppage will ensue.
Sorry but users are not on the same foot as developers, FreeCAD can manage without users, but not without developers.
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Re: Fusion360 has hiked its prices once again. Brace yourselves, CADfugees are coming

Post by onekk »

Jee-Bee wrote: Thu Aug 18, 2022 4:00 pm ...
I think that our point of view are more near than far away.

I think as in the present time, were many new users with few post came here and "without any reputation" try to affirm their thoughts despite all the people that have a little knowledge about FC.

In this sense I think that a "developer" or any people involved in FC in some way, wiki editing .... should be more "entitled" to make some proposal.

Usually here if some people came here and offers some helps, usually it is not rejected, and there are many examples of "first posts" that have started some thing interesting.

You could agree if you read some threads that many people came here, criticize and don't read even the "IMPORTANT:" ... part to make more easy to answers the questions.

And many more "bad habits".

I could add that @sliptonic has made a meaningful post, and I feel guilty to make "wall of text" :oops:

To add more difficult to the whole argument, there is the difficulties at least for me that English is not my mother language, so there is even some "misalignment" between my thought and my writing. I apologize for any inconvenience.

Regards

Carlo D.
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Re: Fusion360 has hiked its prices once again. Brace yourselves, CADfugees are coming

Post by adrianinsaval »

Jee-Bee wrote: Thu Aug 18, 2022 4:00 pm
with an "advisory board" on top where ideally knowledgable devs would put these wishes in a broader context
As if users are not knowledgeable; as if users don't have a broader context; as if users with other qualities then programming are not good enough :evil:.
Truth is most users don't have knowledge of the inner workings of the program, and lack broader context. Many devs have those, at least for the sections they work on, and some super users too, I wouldn't mind long time helpers like kunda1 or chrisb or genefc having a hand on such an "advisory board". Even then, a dev's opinion has more weight in technical matters. In the end anyone that puts on the effort and makes "high value" posts/comments as described by sliptonic will be heard whether they develop or not.
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Re: Fusion360 has hiked its prices once again. Brace yourselves, CADfugees are coming

Post by sliptonic »

Jee-Bee wrote: Thu Aug 18, 2022 4:00 pm
As if users are not knowledgeable; as if users don't have a broader context; as if users with other qualities then programming are not good enough :evil:.
Not trying to pick nits here. The developer/user distinction gets us into trouble. I've tried to introduce different language because it's useful:

User: A user is someone who only uses the program. IMHO, users bring nothing to the table. That's not a dig, just a fact. They may be very nice people and I'm glad we have so many but, at best, they're neutral. At worst, they require support, need moderation, cause trouble, and are a drain on resources.

Customer A user who pays for the software. We don't have any. Fusion360 keeps changing policy to convert users into customers.

Contributor: May also be a user but a contributor contributes. Contributions can be technical or non-technical. Contributors ARE the community. The more contributors we have the better. Simply posting your opinion to the forum doesn't make you a contributor. Contributions are things that last and are a gift to the community. Moderators, developers, translators, wiki editors, bug creators are all contributors. They almost always have access to other tools or elevated permissions like Moderator access, Github, Crowdin, Wiki editor respectively.

Benefactors: Benefactors are contributors who contribute to the project financially.

Developers includes two sub groups:

- Programmers are obviously people who know how to program. Programming is a skill and a lot of people have it even if they don't develop software for a living.

- Software Developers are professional programmers. They know about the discipline of software development. Just like knowing math doesn't make you an accountant, knowing how to program doesn't make you a software developer. Software developers know how to design software that is efficient and can be maintained by others. They know how to collaborate. They know how (and why) to write unit tests. They know how to use tools like linters, debuggers, and profiling tools. They can resolve merge conflicts. They know about packaging and distribution. They have real world experience building and maintaining complex systems over time.

FreeCAD has both amateur programmers and software developers in our ranks. That's a great thing. FOSS software is a great place for an amateur programmer to level up their skills. However, running a large project like is very difficult. While it requires wisdom and skills from many kinds of people, it is ultimately a software project. That means that the single most crucial skill is the professional software developer. We have some great ones here and when they speak, their opinions should carry extra weight.
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