Which issues will start to arrive with the splitting of complexity?

Have some feature requests, feedback, cool stuff to share, or want to know where FreeCAD is going? This is the place.
Forum rules
Be nice to others! Read the FreeCAD code of conduct!
drmacro
Veteran
Posts: 8862
Joined: Sun Mar 02, 2014 4:35 pm

Re: Which issues will start to arrive with the splitting of complexity?

Post by drmacro »

grd wrote: Wed Aug 17, 2022 12:08 pm ...

And also things such as exporting a STL file. In Pro/E this is easy, you select export to STL. In FC you first need to select a body to export. When things are separated you don't need to select the body anymore.

...
Following this logic then, I see this as a limitation of what you propose.

In FreeCAD, if I have multiple solids in a file (Two PD Body's and a Part Compound) that I intend to 3D print as one, I can simply select all three and export the STL.
I don't have to open 3 files and I don't need to create an assembly...
Star Trek II: The Wrath of Khan: Spock: "...His pattern indicates two-dimensional thinking."
grd
Posts: 328
Joined: Wed Apr 13, 2022 5:13 am
Location: Eindhoven, The Netherlands

Re: Which issues will start to arrive with the splitting of complexity?

Post by grd »

drmacro wrote: Wed Aug 17, 2022 12:21 pm
grd wrote: Wed Aug 17, 2022 12:08 pm ...

And also things such as exporting a STL file. In Pro/E this is easy, you select export to STL. In FC you first need to select a body to export. When things are separated you don't need to select the body anymore.

...
Following this logic then, I see this as a limitation of what you propose.

In FreeCAD, if I have multiple solids in a file (Two PD Body's and a Part Compound) that I intend to 3D print as one, I can simply select all three and export the STL.
I don't have to open 3 files and I don't need to create an assembly...
When you open an assembly you could do the same thing. I am talking about parts.
About Nim. Latest Release 2.0.2. Here is Nim in 100 seconds and a Nim package. There are Qt and OCCT packages.
drmacro
Veteran
Posts: 8862
Joined: Sun Mar 02, 2014 4:35 pm

Re: Which issues will start to arrive with the splitting of complexity?

Post by drmacro »

grd wrote: Wed Aug 17, 2022 12:33 pm
drmacro wrote: Wed Aug 17, 2022 12:21 pm
grd wrote: Wed Aug 17, 2022 12:08 pm ...

And also things such as exporting a STL file. In Pro/E this is easy, you select export to STL. In FC you first need to select a body to export. When things are separated you don't need to select the body anymore.

...
Following this logic then, I see this as a limitation of what you propose.

In FreeCAD, if I have multiple solids in a file (Two PD Body's and a Part Compound) that I intend to 3D print as one, I can simply select all three and export the STL.
I don't have to open 3 files and I don't need to create an assembly...
When you open an assembly you could do the same thing. I am talking about parts.
But, that's my point, don't need an assembly, don't need other files.
Star Trek II: The Wrath of Khan: Spock: "...His pattern indicates two-dimensional thinking."
grd
Posts: 328
Joined: Wed Apr 13, 2022 5:13 am
Location: Eindhoven, The Netherlands

Re: Which issues will start to arrive with the splitting of complexity?

Post by grd »

drmacro wrote: Wed Aug 17, 2022 12:37 pm
grd wrote: Wed Aug 17, 2022 12:33 pm
drmacro wrote: Wed Aug 17, 2022 12:21 pm
grd wrote: Wed Aug 17, 2022 12:08 pm ...

And also things such as exporting a STL file. In Pro/E this is easy, you select export to STL. In FC you first need to select a body to export. When things are separated you don't need to select the body anymore.

...
Following this logic then, I see this as a limitation of what you propose.

In FreeCAD, if I have multiple solids in a file (Two PD Body's and a Part Compound) that I intend to 3D print as one, I can simply select all three and export the STL.
I don't have to open 3 files and I don't need to create an assembly...
When you open an assembly you could do the same thing. I am talking about parts.
But, that's my point, don't need an assembly, don't need other files.
No. You need to select them first. When you only have one body you still need to select that.
About Nim. Latest Release 2.0.2. Here is Nim in 100 seconds and a Nim package. There are Qt and OCCT packages.
drmacro
Veteran
Posts: 8862
Joined: Sun Mar 02, 2014 4:35 pm

Re: Which issues will start to arrive with the splitting of complexity?

Post by drmacro »

grd wrote: Wed Aug 17, 2022 12:41 pm ...No. You need to select them first. When you only have one body you still need to select that.
But, I don't need to open other files.

Look, what you propose is just change for change sake. It has been explained, it would be no trivial task to implement, with questionable, if any, gains, and it just isn't going to happen...unless you can come up with more than "they do it, so should we".
Star Trek II: The Wrath of Khan: Spock: "...His pattern indicates two-dimensional thinking."
grd
Posts: 328
Joined: Wed Apr 13, 2022 5:13 am
Location: Eindhoven, The Netherlands

Re: Which issues will start to arrive with the splitting of complexity?

Post by grd »

drmacro wrote: Wed Aug 17, 2022 1:01 pm
grd wrote: Wed Aug 17, 2022 12:41 pm ...No. You need to select them first. When you only have one body you still need to select that.
But, I don't need to open other files.
Tell me, what is the difference with opening an assy and a multi-object part?
Look, what you propose is just change for change sake. It has been explained, it would be no trivial task to implement, with questionable, if any, gains, and it just isn't going to happen...unless you can come up with more than "they do it, so should we".
It is not that case and you know it too when you have worked previously with the CAD programs that I mentioned before.
About Nim. Latest Release 2.0.2. Here is Nim in 100 seconds and a Nim package. There are Qt and OCCT packages.
User avatar
obelisk79
Veteran
Posts: 1061
Joined: Thu Sep 24, 2020 9:01 pm

Re: Which issues will start to arrive with the splitting of complexity?

Post by obelisk79 »

grd wrote: Wed Aug 17, 2022 12:08 pm Restructuring a Pro/E document? Easy.
What exactly do you mean by 'Restructuring a document' ? Can you provide an example of restructuring?
But I still don't believe you understand what I meant with getting rid of complexity. With Creo/SW/SE/Inventor everything is structured with three separate things: Parts, Assemblies and Drawings. A part can only have one body, not more, and an assembly can only have sub-assemblies and parts. That's it. And a drawing is a reference to a model (part or assembly). So you can't do a boolean operation with a part. That becomes an assy. In the past I saw this happening in FC, with two bodies with different density being united...
Yes, quintessentially I'm struggling to understand what complexity this proposal actually resolves. My experience (please note, I do not do design for my profession, I am a military man, design is my personal passion) I used Solidworks from 2009-2015, OnShape from 2015-2020 and FreeCAD from 2020 to present. After learning FreeCAD's approach/paradigms I find it preferable to SW and OS. Getting to such a state of familiarity was no small task for me, however I am thankful that I persevered.
The structure of a FCStd file can have anything. But that is not the problem. The problem is that when you want to use it and start creating things it gets bad very easy. And also things such as assigning a material, to which body do you assign it? And what is the weight of that body? And things such as labels, it's the same thing. In Pro/E I could do assign a material and then I could measure the weight and even the COG (all within one program), I didn't need an external WB to do this.
I don't think this is as complex as it may appear to you. It is however, obviously not your preferred approach to working. There is a lot of ambiguity in the naming conventions of containers and/or no strict requirements in how they are used. While you may view that as complexity, I (and presumably others) view it as flexibility. It does allow for unwanted behavior which relies on the user knowing what they are doing/want when creating a design in order to avoid. This sounds like debate between the semantics of extreme flexibility vs protecting a designer from themselves. I prefer flexibility. Also, to be precise, your description seems to be centered around such things as FEA/FEM which not every user is concerned with.
And also things such as exporting a STL file. In Pro/E this is easy, you select export to STL. In FC you first need to select a body to export. When things are separated you don't need to select the body anymore.
That is a fairly trivial complaint, I find it easier to select a body in my feature tree than have several document windows open in order to manage exports. Once you understand the behavior this is a 'nothing-burger'. In most cases (using your example of STL export) I actually prefer to convert a body to a mesh directly in FreeCAD for finer tesselation preview/control before exporting anyway.
drmacro
Veteran
Posts: 8862
Joined: Sun Mar 02, 2014 4:35 pm

Re: Which issues will start to arrive with the splitting of complexity?

Post by drmacro »

grd wrote: Wed Aug 17, 2022 1:08 pm ...
It is not that case and you know it too when you have worked previously with the CAD programs that I mentioned before.
I don't agree that it is wonderful and the way it must or need be. This is your prejudice/opinion.

Please, pull a branch, implement it and show us. Obviously the arguments so far have not proved convincing.
Star Trek II: The Wrath of Khan: Spock: "...His pattern indicates two-dimensional thinking."
grd
Posts: 328
Joined: Wed Apr 13, 2022 5:13 am
Location: Eindhoven, The Netherlands

Re: Which issues will start to arrive with the splitting of complexity?

Post by grd »

obelisk79 wrote: Wed Aug 17, 2022 1:14 pm What exactly do you mean by 'Restructuring a document' ? Can you provide an example of restructuring?
Some times you need to delete a feature and then it falls apart. Then you need to restructure the model tree. In Pro/E this is easy. In FC it's a bit harder but still doable.
Yes, quintessentially I'm struggling to understand what complexity this proposal actually resolves. My experience (please note, I do not do design for my profession, I am a military man, design is my personal passion) I used Solidworks from 2009-2015, OnShape from 2015-2020 and FreeCAD from 2020 to present. After learning FreeCAD's approach/paradigms I find it preferable to SW and OS. Getting to such a state of familiarity was no small task for me, however I am thankful that I persevered.
I have a bachelor degree in Engineering and I studied at night. I have never used OnShape but I used SW as well, professionally. I already told you what I mean (and to others too). So if you have a question please ask.
I don't think this is as complex as it may appear to you. It is however, obviously not your preferred approach to working. There is a lot of ambiguity in the naming conventions of containers and/or no strict requirements in how they are used. While you may view that as complexity, I (and presumably others) view it as flexibility. It does allow for unwanted behavior which relies on the user knowing what they are doing/want when creating a design in order to avoid. This sounds like debate between the semantics of extreme flexibility vs protecting a designer from themselves. I prefer flexibility. Also, to be precise, your description seems to be centered around such things as FEA/FEM which not every user is concerned with.
This is funny. I have not even mentioned FEM and I don't think that this can cause any problems. The naming problem is a bit of an issue, but only a bit, but I told you my motivations. It is not just one thing, there are more.
About Nim. Latest Release 2.0.2. Here is Nim in 100 seconds and a Nim package. There are Qt and OCCT packages.
grd
Posts: 328
Joined: Wed Apr 13, 2022 5:13 am
Location: Eindhoven, The Netherlands

Re: Which issues will start to arrive with the splitting of complexity?

Post by grd »

drmacro wrote: Wed Aug 17, 2022 1:22 pm
grd wrote: Wed Aug 17, 2022 1:08 pm ...
It is not that case and you know it too when you have worked previously with the CAD programs that I mentioned before.
I don't agree that it is wonderful and the way it must or need be. This is your prejudice/opinion.

Please, pull a branch, implement it and show us. Obviously the arguments so far have not proved convincing.
No. Do you wanna know why? I think that I can do the part thing (as long as it is Python), but assemblies are a lot harder because of external WB and drafting is also a region that I don't know exactly. And you mentioned lots of other things.
About Nim. Latest Release 2.0.2. Here is Nim in 100 seconds and a Nim package. There are Qt and OCCT packages.
Post Reply