[Feature Request] Surface finish symbols [SOLVED]

Discussions about the development of the TechDraw workbench
NewJoker
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[Feature Request] Surface finish symbols [SOLVED]

Post by NewJoker »

Hi,

in my opinion, TechDraw became an almost complete environment for technical drawings of even quite complex parts and this is great. Though recently there were a few discussions about missing symbols. In a previous feature request, I asked for symbols that can be added to dimensions and annotations (diameter, angle, geometric tolerances and so on). Weld symbols are already available which is great. But I've noticed that one more missing category is surface finish annotations. These symbols are drawn in a similar manner as in the case of welds - they have a form of modified (depending on the requirement for machining) checkmarks with additional fields for numbers and text. They can describe roughness, lay and waviness but also denote the type of surface treatment. Adding them to TechDraw is necessary because they can't be simply copied from the internet. And since they are similar to weld symbols, maybe it will be easier to implement them.

Here's a video in which someone spends quite a long time creating such symbols from scratch and importing them to TechDraw as SVG files: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oCEhTrvF9-M

Maybe his work could serve as a base for the implementation of this important feature.

What are your thoughts about this ?

For reference, here's what it looks like in SolidWorks (I added my translation and highlighted the main part of the tool):

sw.JPG
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Last edited by NewJoker on Fri Jul 22, 2022 8:46 am, edited 1 time in total.
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wandererfan
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Re: [Feature Request] Surface finish symbols

Post by wandererfan »

NewJoker wrote: Mon Feb 07, 2022 7:39 pm What are your thoughts about this ?
Definitely looks similar to weld symbols in some ways. I'll have to do some searching to find the official standards before I can say more.
ToniTen
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Re: [Feature Request] Surface finish symbols

Post by ToniTen »

I did this as an editable SVG symbol, insert it, and edit the fields to what you need them to be.

I'm not sure if it's 100% norm conforming, but it's a start
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NewJoker
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Re: [Feature Request] Surface finish symbols

Post by NewJoker »

wandererfan wrote: Wed Feb 09, 2022 2:33 pm Definitely looks similar to weld symbols in some ways. I'll have to do some searching to find the official standards before I can say more.
It seems that ISO 1302 and ASME Y14.36 standards define these symbols. It should be possible to find them online. I also have several books (mostly in Polish and based on ISO standards) about GPS/GD&T. I could share some translations and figures from them. Maybe they could be helpful.

ToniTen wrote: Thu Feb 10, 2022 3:57 pm I did this as an editable SVG symbol, insert it, and edit the fields to what you need them to be.

I'm not sure if it's 100% norm conforming, but it's a start
Thank you for sharing this. Indeed, it's a good start for the implementation of editable surface finish symbols.

Meanwhile, I added a feature request on GitHub: https://github.com/FreeCAD/FreeCAD/issues/6375
Papalabu
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Re: [Feature Request] Surface finish symbols

Post by Papalabu »

Hi,

this tool looks awesome and I'm happy when it is finished to try this.

At the moment I'm struggeling a little bit with my Projekt in Freecad.
Because i want to make drawings in FreeCAD to manufacture thise parts and one of the problems are the missing surface symbols.

NewJoker wrote: Tue Feb 15, 2022 1:00 am It seems that ISO 1302 and ASME Y14.36 standards define these symbols. It should be possible to find them online. I also have several books (mostly in Polish and based on ISO standards) about GPS/GD&T. I could share some translations and figures from them. Maybe they could be helpful.

ToniTen hat geschrieben: ↑Do Feb 10, 2022 4:57 pm
I did this as an editable SVG symbol, insert it, and edit the fields to what you need them to be.

I'm not sure if it's 100% norm conforming, but it's a start

Thank you for sharing this. Indeed, it's a good start for the implementation of editable surface finish symbols.
Now it will be a little tricky.

The ISO 1302 is the old ISO standard from 1993. I know, these standard is at the moment allowed to use but there is a currend ISO standard(I don't know the number), that I will send you in the coming days. I have to check my books at work.

But next month (in april) this year, they will release a new reworked standard calls ISO 21920. I try to get the paper and check the changes of the symbols.

A few days ago I decidet to create a library with all Surface symbols by the ISO standard in .svg --> a complete packige with all symbols
The difficulty is the dependence to the Line group. Each line thickness has a font(letters) height, and every font heigt needs an other symbol height.
So I have to display all the Line groups. If I had one Line group finished, I can scale the other this is not a Problem for me it takes only some time.

My Question is, is it helpful for you when you get a complete packige with all symbols with right dimensions u need?
Did you need support to create the right symbols. I've no idea about programming a tools, but I have experience and skills to create 3D Models & drawings.
NewJoker
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Re: [Feature Request] Surface finish symbols

Post by NewJoker »

Papalabu wrote: Mon Mar 14, 2022 11:30 pm My Question is, is it helpful for you when you get a complete packige with all symbols with right dimensions u need?
Did you need support to create the right symbols. I've no idea about programming a tools, but I have experience and skills to create 3D Models & drawings.
Of course, it will be very helpful. I'm glad that someone picked up on this topic. I planned to create some svg surface finish symbols myself soon but I don't have any experience with that and, as you can see, I'm not up to date with the engineering codes (especially since my books are based on Polish codes which in turn are based on older ISO standards). With a complete package of scalable and editable svg surface finish symbols, we will be much closer to implementing this very useful tool. I think that its general architecture can be based on the tool used for weld symbols.
NewJoker
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Re: [Feature Request] Surface finish symbols

Post by NewJoker »

I checked the most recent (2021) edition of the best Polish book about technical drawings ("Rysunek techniczny maszynowy" by T. Dobrzański) and it says there that old PN-ISO 1302:1996 was replaced by PN-EN ISO 1302:2004 which is based on ISO 1302:2002. And it seems that this was in turn replaced by ISO 21920-1:2021 so that should be the most recent standard at the moment. However, we don't have (and likely won't have in the near future) any Polish version of this standard so we keep using ISO 1302. I don't know how it looks like in other countries but maybe we should stay with ISO 1302 for now.

Actually, I think that we could add symbols based on ISO 1302 for now, then maybe those based on ISO 21920 and just let users select which standard to choose. This way it will be the most flexible solution. But of course, we can also start from ISO 21920 if it's already used in other countries. Regardless of what we choose, it will be great to have a tool with surface finish symbols in TechDraw.
Papalabu
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Re: [Feature Request] Surface finish symbols

Post by Papalabu »

Yes you are right it is the same ISO 1302 of the year 2004 u have written.

I share the same opinion with you. It will be definitly a good beginning when we start with the ISO 1302:2004 and try to add the ISO 21920 a little bit later. So I think, that the ISO 21920 will be the International standard for all countrys in the future.

I
NewJoker wrote: Wed Mar 16, 2022 9:18 am I don't know how it looks like in other countries but maybe we should stay with ISO 1302 for now.
I´m working in Germany for a bigger company and we use the ISO 1302:1996 :o :) .

In the last days I used the time to drafting the symbol combination as less as possible. When i finished the first line group 5 i will send you the example.

At the moment I do my fist steps in "programming in XML" with the Inkscape and I have some questions to you.
For me it isn't a big problem to get the textedit from freecad into the Svg symbols.
But I have no idea how I get a condition between the horizntal line and the textbox a(b) & c. Because the horizontal line lenght are in relation to these textboxes.

How you want to implement the symbols? Did you need a symbol from each combination, or did you need the fragments of all symbols?

My next question is, what textfont we use. For my opinion we can use the freecad standard "osifont".
I have no idea, if it is easy or possible to make an condition between the symboles and for example the "techdraw" textfont in the settings.
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NewJoker
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Re: [Feature Request] Surface finish symbols

Post by NewJoker »

Papalabu wrote: Thu Mar 17, 2022 12:01 am But I have no idea how I get a condition between the horizntal line and the textbox a(b) & c. Because the horizontal line lenght are in relation to these textboxes.
First of all, have you seen this video ? https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oCEhTrvF9-M
It can be very helpful for us and I think that we can follow the approach presented there.

Likely, it would be hard to make the symbol line adapt to the length of the text field. Thus, I would do it like MangoJelly in that video - just create symbols with a sufficiently long horizontal line to cover most input cases. For now, it should be enough.

Papalabu wrote: Thu Mar 17, 2022 12:01 am How you want to implement the symbols? Did you need a symbol from each combination, or did you need the fragments of all symbols?
It could be more convenient to build symbols from pieces but for the ease of implementation, we might need a separate symbol for each combination. Here's a reference from the aforementioned Polish book:

symbols.PNG
symbols.PNG (25.47 KiB) Viewed 1391 times

But those are just basic shapes and they can be modified, for example b + e or c + e.

The tool in SolidWorks (shown in my first post here) can be a good reference too, I can add more screenshots from it, showing all possible combinations.

In addition to roughness, we should also remember about lay and waviness. Symbols are the same but they use different text annotations and thus text placeholders might be located differently.

However, once the first svg symbol is ready, the rest of the variants should be rather easy to do by just adding some modifications.

Papalabu wrote: Thu Mar 17, 2022 12:01 am My next question is, what textfont we use. For my opinion we can use the freecad standard "osifont".
I have no idea, if it is easy or possible to make an condition between the symboles and for example the "techdraw" textfont in the settings.
Yes, let's use the default "osifont".
edi
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Re: [Feature Request] Surface finish symbols

Post by edi »

wandererfan wrote: Wed Feb 09, 2022 2:33 pm Definitely looks similar to weld symbols in some ways.
The difference between weld symbols and surface finish symbols is, that the second ones have to become rotated in every angle. The surface finish symbol is perpendicular to the line which is representing the surface.
Weld symbols are svg-files (same as icons). Svg-files easy can be included into TechDraw pages. But does anybody know a way to include rotated (any angle, not just 90 degree) svg-files ?
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