My take on the FreeCAD GUI

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FreddyFreddy
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Re: My take on the FreeCAD GUI

Post by FreddyFreddy »

obelisk79 wrote: Mon Mar 14, 2022 12:18 pm
Any 'hard' changes to the UI will be met with fierce resistance by existing power users, because of this, there are also options for nearly everything. That is a good thing.
I here ya. Change management is difficult. But surely if there is enough evidence that the status quo is far from ideal, then something has to break?
2. Because of the customizable nature of FreeCAD and it's UI, I'm trying to coordinate a community driven effort to identify things related to the interface and more importantly the user experience to help refine the "out of the box" experience for all users.
Yes, that's what got me here!
Yep, spent hours reading
So far participation has been, a bit disappointing. Particularly considering how many complaints about the UI/UX that crop up on a regular basis. So, as a new user, if you notice things like "Why aren't these icons grouped in a drop-down?" or "How come the button positions aren't the same between this group of functions?" or "Why is this input field named differently between functions even when the data is the same?" or "Why is the naming of this function not more clear?" or "This tool bar arrangement doesn't make sense" or "why is this context/right click menu stuffed with options that are of little/infrequent use instead of other options?" etc. then use your fresh set of eyes and take notes. Share them in my threads so I can track potential problem items and look for practical solutions to address them with minimal developer intervention necessary and help address them for those who come after you.
From that list it is obvious you are well and truly hearing feedback that matches my observations! However I question whether tap-dancing around the problem without core commitment to improvement will ultimately result in anything less than frustration.
It's easy to criticize, people come here to do it all day, and now that I'm trying to coordinate just pinpointing problems which requires actual effort it's all crickets and I'm left researching this crap by myself which is way less effective. So feel free to pitch in.
'crickets': not heard that one before. Too funny!
Happy to be here, happy to help.
But you don't want to alone on the island. Is there any way to more accurately identify if the so called "power users' are collectively against change, or is it just a small subgroup? I ask, as it feels like they wield enormous influence. What is the developers' take?
I apologize for the small rant at the end there, it's frustrating to have my own complaints, see all the other complaints regarding this issue and when I finally step up to do something about it; I get minimal or misguided input + resistance.
Hopefully it is not a simple case of square peg and round hole.
FreddyFreddy
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Re: My take on the FreeCAD GUI

Post by FreddyFreddy »

keithsloan52 wrote: Mon Mar 14, 2022 12:48 pm You are not the first and will not be the last to make such comments, criticisms and suggestions, in fact this is a common occurrence.
That is coming through loud and clear.
What you and many others that have gone before you have failed to realise is that FreeCAD development is very very laissez faire.
An analogy for me would be that FreeCAD is like a startup company that has for a startup had a lot of success but has failed to morph into a
more mature company. Other Open Source software like Blender, KiCAD have successfully transitioned to more mature and professional environments, they do planning, have release cycles, conferences etc. Other Open Software like Fritzing are struggling. It is very much as case of survival of the fittest, don't get me wrong I don't think FreeCAD is going away but it is not going to go from Strength to Strength like Blender, KiCAD etc
This thread to me is 16 pages of wasted thought keyboarding etc. There are just too many Armchair developers happy to make comments suggestions but not actually get involved. Even if somebody was to provide for FreeCAD the sort of leadership that Ton Roosendaal https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ton_Roosendaal brought to Blender, I don't think we have large enough set of core of developers to make the sort of changes you and many others would like to see, it is just not going to happen. Also a number of core developers don't want to move away from laissez faire way of doing things.
I see you are a veteran, and speak on behalf of core devs. Is this "very very laissez faire" thing really the opinion of the core devs and the community at large?
Why would anyone want to get involved (e.g. devs) if the community is defined by an attitude that refuses change and improvement?
chrisb
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Re: My take on the FreeCAD GUI

Post by chrisb »

FreddyFreddy wrote: Mon Mar 14, 2022 11:59 pm Why would anyone want to get involved (e.g. devs) if the community is defined by an attitude that refuses change and improvement?
You are utterly mistaken with this assumption. We just don't fancy every hype.
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obelisk79
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Re: My take on the FreeCAD GUI

Post by obelisk79 »

FreddyFreddy wrote: Mon Mar 14, 2022 11:59 pm Why would anyone want to get involved (e.g. devs) if the community is defined by an attitude that refuses change and improvement?
chrisb wrote: Tue Mar 15, 2022 12:38 am You are utterly mistaken with this assumption. We just don't fancy every hype.
I think its more accurate to say that the community doesn't refuse change, but the current developers work on the aspects of FreeCAD they are most interested in. So, if you propose a change you should approach it carefully, particularly if you don't have the skillset to implement it yourself.
FreddyFreddy
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Re: My take on the FreeCAD GUI

Post by FreddyFreddy »

obelisk79 wrote: Tue Mar 15, 2022 2:56 am
FreddyFreddy wrote: Mon Mar 14, 2022 11:59 pm Why would anyone want to get involved (e.g. devs) if the community is defined by an attitude that refuses change and improvement?
chrisb wrote: Tue Mar 15, 2022 12:38 am You are utterly mistaken with this assumption. We just don't fancy every hype.
I think its more accurate to say that the community doesn't refuse change, but the current developers work on the aspects of FreeCAD they are most interested in. So, if you propose a change you should approach it carefully, particularly if you don't have the skillset to implement it yourself.
OK, I can wear that slap. Pity my programming experience the last 10 years is all PHP, databases before that and lots of embedded assembler back in the day (long long time ago!). I'm thinking that FC is built on a 3rd party core CAD package, QT, and some other bits, the code of FC should not actually be that complicated. On the other hand, as any programmer can tell you, design and architecture are just as important as code, and if that is the extent of my ability to contribute then I am happy to do so, if anyone wants to listen (unless I'm talking crap!).

Also, please don't be overly sensitive. I did say "if the community is defined ...". I'm trying to figure it out. Remember, this series of posts is to debate the UI. I wish to offend nobody, but the level of concern about the UI is high, and the debate will be very opinionated, but I am in no doubt there is a level of science involved.

I am heartened by a post I hadn't previously noticed from Kunda1 on Sep 21 which encourages Aleks to continue despite "resistance". I see Kunda1 is a dev.
chrisb
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Re: My take on the FreeCAD GUI

Post by chrisb »

FreddyFreddy wrote: Tue Mar 15, 2022 6:28 am Also, please don't be overly sensitive. I did say "if the community is defined ...".
I had well seen this, and from the logic's side it's a simple "ex falso quod libet". But from the way discussions work, it's a first insinuation of an opinion which I see here every now and then, that the users can be clearly divided in two groups, one of them consisting only of some old idiots sticking to old stuff, unable to face reality. That's why I clarified the If.
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onekk
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Re: My take on the FreeCAD GUI

Post by onekk »

FreddyFreddy wrote: Tue Mar 15, 2022 6:28 am I'm thinking that FC is built on a 3rd party core CAD package, QT, and some other bits, the code of FC should not actually be that complicated.
In effect it could be a "common mistake", I made this assumption, and this is not the case.

You have a GUI made by Qt that interacts with at least two "engines":

1. A modelling engine that is OCCT
2. A visualization engine that is Coin3D

And some library in the middle to permit both C++ and Python interaction with the two engines.

But this is not "so easy" and as I have discovered even not "so linear" as the interactions between the "modeler" and the "visualizer" is very tight, and involve many "magic things" in between.

Very few developers knows "in deep" FC inner working, and digging in a "20 and over" year old source tree is not "very easy" even if you know C++ and Python very well (I don't know too much C++, I could read some code, but programming it is another different task, my Python is better but I'm not a professional programmer).

But the "fact is" that FC is a very viable solution for many of the day to day work on 3D CAD tasks, as some people use it even in a professional environment and not only in 3rd world countries.

So criticize, is good, but some efforts in creating something, is better.

It is not easy, but even report "incongruences" in the workflow and give maybe some "viable solutions" or some hints about what will be more "easy to do" from a newbie point of view will be an help.

One of the point that something is not clear is that most developers here are volunteers and interested maybe in some "limited aspects" of FC, ans usually when the work is done their goals are reached.

So maybe "no interest" in changing things, is maybe only because they don't see the difficulties of other people, sadly it is a common error made by programmers even professional programmers, but it is something that is "very common" as if you spend many hours on something, you could loose the "whole figure" and see only "a bunch of details", and each of these details maybe are the result of "hard work" so the reluctance is "very comprensible".

Said so, when I have asked politely and made some suggestions, usually I have had a "positive response" and developers were very collaborative, especially if things are "clearly told" and "decent documented".

A generic "this is ugly and bad" is something a developer will see countless times and a "request for more details" is often a waste of times.

If you have some time to read many forums thread, you will see that once made a question and made some arguments, and maybe having had an answer and a solution, is not uncommon to see that the "original poster" (OP) will not even say "thank you" and mark "[Solved]" the thread.

Sometimes the OP insist in refusing the "documented answers" he receives and sometimes it even insult "other users" that try to help him, that usually are "simple users that are trying to help another user".

As said many times, "FC is worth more than you payed for", eventually if you find FC very useful you could make a donation to:

"FreeCAD Project Associations"
https://forum.freecadweb.org/viewtopic.php?f=9&t=65726

Or maybe help in some way FC development, maybe writing or translating a wiki page.

Regards

Carlo D.
GitHub page: https://github.com/onekk/freecad-doc.
- In deep articles on FreeCAD.
- Learning how to model with scripting.
- Various other stuffs.

Blog: https://okkmkblog.wordpress.com/
shamanths13
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Re: My take on the FreeCAD GUI

Post by shamanths13 »

onekk wrote: Tue Mar 15, 2022 10:08 am ping
A bit off topic but how do I mark a question or help thread as [Solved]? Sorry but I am new to this forum.Thanks!
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onekk
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Re: My take on the FreeCAD GUI

Post by onekk »

shamanths13 wrote: Tue Mar 15, 2022 12:03 pm
onekk wrote: Tue Mar 15, 2022 10:08 am ping
A bit off topic but how do I mark a question or help thread as [Solved]? Sorry but I am new to this forum.Thanks!
Not very off topic, you have to simply edit your "first post" on the thread and change the title in appending "[Solved]" in front. (or maybe is prepending?).

Usually if the post is not very old it is not difficult, but something different could happen, sometimes the post is changed and seems that all the replies are modified according to the "new title", some other times it is not, maybe because answers title could be modified by the "answerer", but I'm not very expert of this sort of things.

Regards

Carlo D.
GitHub page: https://github.com/onekk/freecad-doc.
- In deep articles on FreeCAD.
- Learning how to model with scripting.
- Various other stuffs.

Blog: https://okkmkblog.wordpress.com/
shamanths13
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Re: My take on the FreeCAD GUI

Post by shamanths13 »

onekk wrote: Tue Mar 15, 2022 12:09 pm
shamanths13 wrote: Tue Mar 15, 2022 12:03 pm
onekk wrote: Tue Mar 15, 2022 10:08 am ping
A bit off topic but how do I mark a question or help thread as [Solved]? Sorry but I am new to this forum.Thanks!
Not very off topic, you have to simply edit your "first post" on the thread and change the title in appending "[Solved]" in front. (or maybe is prepending?).

Usually if the post is not very old it is not difficult, but something different could happen, sometimes the post is changed and seems that all the replies are modified according to the "new title", some other times it is not, maybe because answers title could be modified by the "answerer", but I'm not very expert of this sort of things.

Regards

Carlo D.
Thanks!
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